Creative Pep Talk

303 - Afraid Your Creativity is Stunted? Maybe The Answer Isn't In The Work with Cymone Wilder

Episode Summary

I’m starting to see a new pattern in creative breakthrough. We all know you gotta put in the time to learn your craft, but what’s the gap between being technically proficient and really truly finding yourself creatively? I think the secret is finding yourself personally. Today on the show we have designer and lettering artist Cymone Wilder. I wanted to have Cymone on the show not only because her work is fantastic, but also because as I started to see her work pop up everywhere, I also noticed that it was on the back of a personal journey. I wanted to see what the catalyst of this journey really was for Cymone and her answers did not disappoint!! This episode is a moving personal story mixed with talking shop and creative mechanics that I’m sure will bring a lot of pep to your step!

Episode Notes

TRANSCRIPT

Listen & Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/creative-pep-talk/id929743897

Cymone Wilder
http://www.simonandmoose.com/
https://www.instagram.com/simonandmoose

Cymone’s Deep Fried Lettering Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsLDPivUrc

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Episode Transcription

CPT_303_v1

Andy J. Pizza: [00:00:00] Hey, you're listening to the creative pep talk podcast. We help you build a thriving, creative practice. I'm your host, Andy Jay pizza. You can stay up to date date with all things creative, pep talk by following me on Instagram at Andy J pizza, let's get into today's episode. Shall we?

Guys, what is on the horizon for 2021 could gracious. I don't know. It could be anything. Is this the, is this going to be the year when we finally see the world's first? Pot roast hot pocket and fused cinnamon taco shells brought to you by genetically altered velociraptor, Keebler, elves. I don't know, man, who knows?

I can't predict the future, but I tell you what I can, that you can make some meaningful stuff in level up by going to skillshare.com/creative pep and taking skill shares online classes because time. Is what you make of it. You're saying, Andy, are you talking about glasses in time? Manipulation. Are we talking about Pronto Kinesis here?

And I'm saying no, she quit Skillshare short classes. You don't need to control time. You can learn about illustration design, photography, productivity, and more. Uh, there's a class on there. I was just checking out called, uh, it's it's by Holly Coley Murchison. And every time I say her name, I think Holly Callie, merchants, and creating your dream career.

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When your favorite artists just have a moment. Where they're just right in the pocket, just right in the sweet spot. And there's just this kind of supernatural transcendence where all of a sudden, they're just almost seeing steps ahead of the game and just creating from a place that. Is deeper than we knew existed.

And you see those people and you're like, man, I want that. Don't you want that? We all want that. That's why you're listening to this podcast right now. You know, someone who I think is having a big moment right now is my guest Simone. Wilder, you can go check out her work@simonandmoose.com or at Simon and moose on Instagram.

And you're going to see this gorgeous work. It's got this kind of gritty, uh, slickness juxtaposition thing going on. Gorgeous stuff. And this year I just started seeing her name, pop up all over the place, her work all over the place. She's having a massive year. And as I dug in, it's no surprise because these people that find that space to me so often there's a pattern that creative breakthrough is a ripple effect emanating from.

Personal breakthrough, personal growth, personal revelation. And if you follow Simone online, if you have been following her, you're going to notice that she's really just over the past couple years, been going through a personal journey, coming into our own, getting to know herself and embody that. And the creativity is just flowing from there.

And that's really why I wanted to have a chat with her. I wanted to dig in and find out what was the catalyst for this change and for this journey and for this breakthrough. And I want you to listen out for when she talks about how this process came from. Taking a good look at the things that we as a society are suppressing.

You know, it reminds me of one of my favorite things I've heard recently that I've just been ruminating on from a philosopher and theologian, Pete Rollins. He says that the artist's job isn't to tell us something, we don't know it's to tell us something that we know that we didn't. No that we knew. And this chat just reminded me that the artist's job is often to go where no other person will go.

And often that means within, and I hope that this chat inspires you to start. Taking the personal journey as seriously as you're taking the creative journey, because I think there's a convergence here. There's a, there's an overlap in that Venn diagram where things start to get really interesting. And so here it is my chat with Simone Wilder.

Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. I'm super pumped to talk to you. There's not a ton about you online. So that's part of the reason I wanted to chat.

Cymone Wilder: [00:06:43] Yeah, I'm a mystery,

Andy J. Pizza: [00:06:45] but thanks. And I really appreciate it. You know, one of the things as I was kind of diving into your work and all the stuff that you have online, your designs and your Instagram and everything.

One thing that stood out to me was there's a post, I think it's about a year ago where you said that change. Wasn't really your thing. And that kinda shocked me because the, probably the biggest reason why I wanted to have you on this show was that from the outside, it looks like you've been on a big journey of self discovery over the past couple of years.

And for me, I'm really curious about how the creative journey and the, the personal journey of the creative person are often really tangled. And it seems like. You've been having creative breakthroughs, right. Alongside personal breakthroughs. Does that feel true to you? Oh

Cymone Wilder: [00:07:35] yeah. A hundred percent. I think.

Um, I think I, I don't like change. I don't love change just because I'm a human being and we're creatures of habit. And so I think my mental health is, uh, immediately affected by, uh, like life change, but you're right. I have been going through at least the last few years, kind of a self discovery moment.

And perhaps that's just because I'm in my mid to late twenties and that's. Just what you do, but I feel like I'm learning a lot about myself, my community, my family, and I, I can't do anything. I can't help it. That is affecting my art because that's just, my art is who I am. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people who can kind of compartmentalize my art from my life.

Um, and it just influences, you know, everything. And so I think even if you look at my portfolio from like the last few years, you can kind of see. The work change as some of these big things are happening in my life. So like two years ago, or I guess a year ago, I started getting serious about, um, my mental health and my physical health.

And so you can definitely see that in my, in my work. And, and then, you know, this year as some of the civil rights issues have, have, you know, moved to the forefront of. Of society. I think you can see that in my work and that's kind of something that's been there and I've, um, messed with a little bit, but it's something that in my personal life I'm, I'm coming to grips with.

And so it's in my work.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:09:06] Yeah. Yeah. I can see all that kind of shining through and I think. Towards the end of our chat. I'd like to kind of talk about present day stuff and dig into some of what maybe sparked that. But before we jump there, since you are a mystery and there isn't a whole backstory online for you, the first question I have is what design did you consume?

That made you a designer, like what was the first design stuff? We were like, I want to do this, or this is changing, who I am. Was that high school? Was that earlier? What, what started that process and who were those designers and how did

Cymone Wilder: [00:09:45] that happen? I think, uh, probably in high school is when I was kind of aware that design was even a possibility or a thing that you could do.

Um, and. I followed, uh, the change, the thought blog, which I can't remember the guy who runs that, but it was kind of a biggish thing back when I was in high school. And so I was seeing like this huge variety of design work that I was like, Oh my gosh, I have, I had didn't even know this was a thing. And like all this different stuff coming at me.

And so that was kind of the first. Big place. And then of course, Threadless was kind of a big and blowing up at that point. And so that was kind of, uh, an influence and definitely didn't stay in influence long, but it was, it was, uh, it was definitely great and kind of opening my eyes to, you know, design can be stuff on a t-shirt, it can be posters.

It can be, you know, there's the whole advertising world to design and all this other stuff. So that was kind of the intro for me. What was the

Andy J. Pizza: [00:10:44] design or designer who. You first became like a super fan of that was like really your taste.

Cymone Wilder: [00:10:52] Maybe Eric Marina. Vic is what I usually tell people. Um, I don't know if he was the very first that I was super fan of, but this is the only one I, as far back as I can remember, everything else is kind of a blur, but he was kind of doing the friends of type thing.

I'm real big at the end of when I was kind of like a senior in high school and getting into college. And so that was, uh, I was like, Oh, lettering and typography are kind of a thing too. So maybe that's something I could, you know, get into

Andy J. Pizza: [00:11:19] the friends of type lettering, that kind of expression. What did it do for you that you didn't have before that, like before you discovered design and lettering, what was kind of missing from your.

Life and existence before that, that it kind of provided or made you curious about, or what was it doing for you?

Cymone Wilder: [00:11:43] My answer is probably kind of dumb because I feel like my getting into it, uh, felt dumb, but it's just like, Lettering and typography says exactly what it means. There's not as much room for interpretation.

Obviously there is still for interpretation and how it is, uh, represented and some of the other, you know, the textures and the styles and all that stuff. But it literally just says what it means. And I think that was really attractive to me. And thinking back to. You know, junior high taking notes and looking at the stuff that I was scribbling in the, in the side, uh, of the notes, it was just always like bubble type and little black letters and things.

And so I think I've kind of always gravitated towards that, but, um, realizing that. Lettering topography is so clear and really can say quite a bit was what was attractive to me.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:12:41] I feel like you're somebody even then who has something to say, did you not have an outlet to say the stuff that you wanted to

Cymone Wilder: [00:12:48] say?

I mean, I feel like I just entered into therapy because now I'm thinking back to growing up my family. No, it's all good. I think it's, this is a nice decision every moment for me, but thinking back to how my, my family is very kind of tight lip and we don't really talk about hard issues. I mean, we, we like to joke and make fun of people.

That's all we basically do. And so I think that, yeah, I didn't necessarily have a way to get my thoughts out, um, at least in, in my relationships and in my life. And so, yeah. Uh, lettering has been, uh, has been a way to do that. And, uh, I'm also not someone who will say any, anything more than what I have to.

And so I think. Lettering does that. It's just like, here's what I got to say. And I'm done, that's it?

Andy J. Pizza: [00:13:39] Yeah. That's super interesting. I've never thought about lettering in terms of like the economy, like being economic with your words. You know, I, they talk a lot about that as comedians, like figuring out what's the shortest route to the punchline and lettering is definitely an exercise in, how can I tell you?

The most with the least amount of words in the most punchy way. Does that, does that feel right to you?

Cymone Wilder: [00:14:09] Yeah, definitely. And I think that that's more and I, I guess I can't say that that's the way for every letter, every, um, designer, but I think maybe I'm lazy and I just like to have as few words as possible to work with so that I can, you know, get to the, the art side of it more than anything.

So when you

Andy J. Pizza: [00:14:27] discovered design and lettering, did you feel like. It, there was a connection too. I didn't know. I could do what I was doing with bubble type as an adult. Oh, a hundred percent with something actually to

Cymone Wilder: [00:14:39] say yeah, 100%. I definitely didn't realize it was a thing. I think when I like very first was I sat down and said, okay, I'm going to let or something.

I was in college and I was just kind of like, I've seen people do this, let me just give it a shot, you know, on a sticky note or something or whatever. And my sketchbook. And then, you know, you start posting that stuff and people are like, Oh, that's kinda cool. And then your mom's friend is like, Hey, can you do my, you know, logo or whatever?

And then you're like, Oh, I can make money off of this and, you know, make it career out of it.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:15:12] Yeah. Did you feel like you had. When you're looking at the friends of type blog, people that aren't familiar with that. Could you just explain what that was back in the day and the heyday? What was

Cymone Wilder: [00:15:22] this thing?

Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know the specific intention behind it, but I think it was basically for designers, um, who, you know, were designers and kind of use this blog as an outlet to explore, um, type and lettering, uh, And so it was, it kind of felt like a playground for these designers to explore things that they weren't able to in their careers.

And I mean, they were, you know, doling out some really cool stuff and some of it was in sketchbooks and some of it was, you know, designed an illustrator or Photoshop or whatever. Um, but it was really cool to kind of just see. These designers let loose. And they were really pumping up, uh, at one point or an incredible amount of work.

It's, you know, obviously slowed down in the past few years, but it's, it was cool to kind of watch that

Andy J. Pizza: [00:16:09] stuff pop up as you're consuming this stuff. What was the stuff that either in terms of what they were saying or aesthetically, how they were saying it, what were the patterns of things where you're like.

Mentally collecting like, Oh, that thing hits me hard. Like what, what were the things that they were doing or sanging that really resonated with you to the point of you saying yes to the call of like, I want to be one

Cymone Wilder: [00:16:33] of these people. I grown up. I was definitely a little sheltered kid. And so getting on this blog and seeing these designers, you know, let her fuck that.

And like all of these, you know, expletives and all this crazy stuff, I was just like, Oh, you can do, you can literally let her or design anything. Like, it doesn't have to be this, you know, deep Martin Luther King quote. Like you can just let her, uh, any dumb phrase that comes to your mind. And so I think that was the stuff that really resonated with me.

And then there were also times when you could tell that. They were truly just exploring like weird forms. And I think that was really interesting to kind of see that creative process

Andy J. Pizza: [00:17:12] happen. Kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier. It seemed like them being playful and cheeky and all that stuff with their, what they were saying.

Did it feel like. Permission to be like, I'm going to say things that I can't say in my regular life, or it's okay to do this or that kind of thing.

Cymone Wilder: [00:17:34] Yeah, definitely. I think it just, it opened up the door to, uh, being able to say things. However, I needed to say that one

thing

Andy J. Pizza: [00:17:43] that I think a lot about is I always encourage people, like figure out who are your heroes?

What you love about them, collect what they're doing, that's working for you or touching you or whatever. And that's really, I think that's a very, very important part of the process, but a part of the process that I don't know if we're, I don't hear as much about as. And then say, what is different about me to my heroes and what do I want to bring to the table that they're not that they're lacking or they're not addressing, did you have a sense or do you have a sense now of.

How you're different to your heroes or what you want to bring to the lettering conversation that's absent or things that you have, that this is an outlet to express that you couldn't talk about any other

Cymone Wilder: [00:18:34] way. I mean, I think I am, you know, no better or worse than any other letter designer, but I think what separates me, especially, and it is especially relevant now is like I'm a black woman, all these, all these people I, you know, have looked up to and are following who are, um, Really great designers.

And I'm not trying to like disparage that at all, but it's a bunch of white folks, like that's who our community is kind of lifted up. And so that's kind of what at least right now has, has separated me from, from a lot of these people that I really look up to. And I think that there's, there's more to me.

I think I have, you know, a specific style and all that stuff, but I think really what. Define some of those visual things that you see are coming from the fact that I'm a black woman. Um, and some of those interests that I have that are kind of specific to my identity.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:19:29] The question I have next is  I watched your YouTube video

I've heard, I've heard of deep fried Oreos. I thought that was crazy. Uh, deep fried letter into a whole another lab. Could you tell us about what that is?

Cymone Wilder: [00:19:41] Yeah, I think so. I mean, deep fried lettering is just this super, like down and dirty way to add texture to your lettering.

And I think that kinda came from. You know, me being in college and going to art school and what they don't tell you, uh, when you go to school, is that, uh, being an art major is super expensive. Uh, you get into a course and they're like, Oh, so you're going to need all these supplies that are required for the class.

And they cost, you know, $500. And when you're in college, uh, I, you know, you don't necessarily have that money. And so I think, uh, that kinda came from me just saying, how can I. Not spend all the money that's required and still get, you know, this amazing product, uh, that they're, they're looking for or not amazing cause you're in college, but you know what I'm saying?

And so I think, uh, kind of a phrase that I've grown up with and, and still kind of keep in the back of my head when I'm creating work is do what you can with what you have. And so I'm, you know, deep frying lettering is just. Literally taking, you know, trash and tracing paper and crumpled up things to, to make something that is a unique and great cause you don't, you know, everybody says this, but it's true.

You don't need amazing tools to make amazing work. So that's, I think, you know, part of my ethos is to, you know, make incredible work with exactly what I have and it doesn't need to be. You know, this $10,000 set up. I

Andy J. Pizza: [00:21:12] know that as a visual thing, we're talking about we're in an audio medium, but you know, I actually feel like verbalizing visual stuff is like powerful for kind of sparking creative, creative things and inspiration.

I wondered if you could just specifically. Run through what it looks like for you to make a piece like this, because if people don't know, you know, one of the things that I think about why I brought that up is because when you talk about the difference between you and your heroes, one of the things that instantly comes to mind for me is that your lettering feels very.

It feels slick, but it feels imperfect and it feels organic and very human. I feel like when I think about Eric and I think about friends of type, I mean, he does stuff like that. It's not that he doesn't Jack stuff up sometimes or whatever, but there's something about. When I think of Eric, I think slick, precise.

That's the kind of, that's what I think of when I think of him. But when I think of your work, I think of human. Like there's something the quality's the same, but, uh, but there's like a, I don't know, a human touch to it. And I think this process gets at that. So can you just kind of explain mechanically a little bit?

Just how that happens.

Cymone Wilder: [00:22:39] Yeah. So, I mean, just the overview of my process before I get into the mechanics, I. Well, a lot of times make a piece perfect. And it does look cool and slick kind of like Eric's work or somebody else's. But then I say, okay, I've got this. How can I, you know, how can I mess it up? How can I make it feel, you know, human and authentic?

Cause I think that is definitely, you nailed it like a really important part of my work, but I usually, um, now I'm like, All on the iPad all the time, which I shouldn't be. I should probably learn how to use a pen and pencil again, cause my hands are gonna deteriorate, but, um, I'll sketch something up on the iPad.

Um, and I try not to use like a lot of different of the, the pins or the different textures that, uh, like procreate has available. I try to just use like the marker and you know, the. Uh, shale brush or whatever, like stick to two things just because that's what a pencil is, is, is one thing you don't get to choose all these other things.

Um, and then sketch up my work. And then I literally will take the iPad, set it down and then grab a, you know, a crumpled up sheet of tracing paper. That's usually my go-to, but I've done other things like, um, plastic off the packaging on something, or, uh, I mean, I don't even really know what else sometimes I'll use an app on my phone that, uh, kind of will increase the grain in a weird way or turn the darkness or the brightness all the way down, all the, you know, different things.

Um, I've even the weirdest one I do that I really love is I'll, um, kind of breathe hot breath on my camera lens on my phone, and then smear it with my finger and then take a picture of. My iPad screen and then bring that into Photoshop and start adding like noise and grain and all these weird textures.

I think just anything I can do to make digital art feel like it's something that you can touch, you can feel you can interact with. You know, in person is kind of my goal.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:24:53] You're adding this human touch and you're adding this. You're basically. Uh, racing an obstacle between the, the PR the viewer and the work you're making it so that it feels tactile and approachable.

And I wonder if, is it possible that D did the friends of type and the design world feel out of reach to you? Or did you feel like this is a. Thing that is not accessible to me. As you're seeing, maybe you're seeing fancy set ups, maybe you're seeing, you know, expensive studios and all that crap going up from high school.

I think lots of people experience that. And it, it seems like to you, there's the thing that you're adding to that conversation or the thing that you feel like might've been missing prior to what you're trying to add is that. Down to earth ness or that accessibility. Does that feel

Cymone Wilder: [00:25:45] right? Yeah, totally. I think, you know, looking at some of these, you know, amazing typographers letters, um, they, you know, it's.

When you look at the work, it looks like they have access to illustrator, maybe glyphs, you know, all these different programs. They, you know, potentially went to the school and learned exactly how to use their Bezier curves to, you know, make the perfect layer for him. And, you know, they maybe studied earth blue Berlin and you know, all of these other, you know, type grades.

And I felt like. Um, you know, back in the day when I was looking at that stuff, like I don't have access to those things. I don't, I can't find some of these vintage books, um, in my little small rural town, too. You know, learn some of these concepts. And I definitely can't afford to go to like Cooper type or, you know, some of these really cool art programs.

So I, I just need to figure out how to make it me. And I think obviously that kind of has come through my work all this time

Andy J. Pizza: [00:26:42] and you, and it's a great. Embodiment of your ethos of using what you have and showing that you don't need XYZ and a trust fund, and this, all this stuff that makes it so that you have the perfect situation to make the perfect thing.

Actually, the perfect thing can be something that's super imperfect and that might even be more beautiful. Yeah. Which I feel like you do so well.

Cymone Wilder: [00:27:06] Yeah. And I, and I don't think it's obviously not bad if you do have access to all those things. And sure. I'm probably making big assumptions as to the access that some people may or may not have had to those things.

Maybe they just come off like. You know, maybe they're doing the same thing and they're faking it until they make it and making it look like their work is amazing. Uh, you know, I don't think any of that is bad, but it's just how I do it,

Andy J. Pizza: [00:27:36] man. There are so many times in my creative career where I look back five years ago at this kind of sliding doors moment, you know, Class that I took this book that I read this, this skill that I learned that ended up five years later making this game-changing thing possible. And I want you all to have those moments, go take a Skillshare class and just feed that curiosity.

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Let's talk about now because like I kind of foreshadowed at the start. I feel like, it seems like the past couple of years have been pretty pivotal for Yale. And I wonder if you could talk about. Whether you're aware of anything that kind of sparked some of that. You can tell your, the journey over the past couple of years, both creatively and personally, and just kind of get into what your, what you've been able to express and put into your work now that you haven't been prior.

Cymone Wilder: [00:31:10] Yeah. So I think the, like the three biggest. Life changes or shifts that I've kind of experienced have happened probably in the last five years. So I graduated school, moved down to Nashville for my first job. And I think being outside of, kind of the college bubble and your hometown bubble, I was like opened up to, you know, how the world experiences me and how I experienced the world.

And so I started kind of seeing, um, racism for the first time, like. And probably it wasn't the first time, but it was the first time I was like seeing it, experiencing it and it was clicking for me. Um, and so that was kind of like a slow, that's been kind of a slow rumble of the last five years of me trying to understand my identity in that.

Um, and that's, it's been interesting because growing up my parents, you know, obviously my parents are black and so my growing up, they were. You know, really good about, uh, helping us understand our history and making sure that we were safe in our communities. Cause we grew up in predominantly white towns and neighborhoods, schools, all that.

And I think growing up, it, it didn't seem real because, uh, you know, I wasn't being called the N word every day. I was just like, Oh, that's that's stuff. We figured it out. We fixed and you know, the civil rights stuff. I'm not experiencing that. And so. That's you know, moving to Nashville, experiencing it for the first time.

It was just like, uh, okay. I see. And then trying to like play back in my head, all those things they said, and like that, that has started to inform those experiences that I'm seeing now. And then of course, you know, last year is just like, They just shoved a ton of craziness into one year. Um, and so it's really been opening my eyes.

And so I've been coming into myself as a black person and that obviously has informed my stuff. And then, uh, my faith was kind of a big thing and, and that, you know, has started to shift along with experiencing, um, racism just because they have been kind of interconnected for a while. And so that. My work, you know, if you go back three or four years on my Instagram, it's probably a bunch of Bible verses and all this stuff.

And I think that understanding my race and how that intertwines with my faith and how that intertwines with what's happening in America right now, kind of just shifted that view. Um, and so that's why a lot of my work now is a little more focused on kind of the, not civil rights, but, you know, experiencing my blackness.

Um, and then. Uh, I used to be very obese. And at the beginning of 2019, I was just like, I have to, I have to get serious about this. Um, and so, uh, it, you know, it was affecting my mental health and my physical health obviously. And so I, that like 2019, there's probably not as much work going on because I was like, I need to get my, my heart, right.

My head, right. My body. Right. Um, so that I can. Make better creative work and kind of understand myself a little bit better as I do that. So those were kind of like the three big life shifts that were happening.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:34:28] What about the fourth one where you cut your hair?

Cymone Wilder: [00:34:32] Yeah, I mean, also that I've always wanted to cut my hair and, um, because I think there's a lot of stigma around black women having very Euro-centric hair.

My mother has been very against it for so long. Cause I think. She thinks that if I cut my hair, I won't be able to get a job or find a husband. And so, uh, at the pandemic gave me an opportunity to trick her into letting me not that she has any control over my life, but obviously I care how people feel about it a little bit.

So. I don't know, the, the short hair is kind of my thing. I don't think I'm, I'm going back for awhile.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:35:06] It feels like it fits your personality and your style. What do you w if you could tell that person you in college before you, why did it, first of all, why did you move to

Cymone Wilder: [00:35:16] Nashville? My first job. Was here in Nashville.

Yeah. Okay.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:35:20] And you kind of, it kind of feels like this big stepping out of ordinary world into extraordinary world into the real world as being your own person. Right. Maxine kind of signifies that. And I wonder if the thing that you have got from these past couple years, how could you tip yourself off to some of this?

If you could tell yourself back in college, like. One or two things of like, here's where you're getting it wrong or here's something that's going to spark personal and creative growth for you, or here's what place where you're maybe, you know, ignorant or have a blind spot or something like that. What, what would you say?

I

Cymone Wilder: [00:36:02] think, I mean, I definitely wouldn't want for like anything to have been different. I think everything has happened as it's supposed to, but I think I would tell myself. To, uh, trust myself a little bit more and to, um, understand the value that I have, you know, at any point in my life, because I think even now I'm dealing with imposter syndrome, like crazy.

And I, I know I was then, um, so just understanding like one you're not, you're not, you're not perfect, but you are good enough. And what you're doing is like you're on the right path, you're on the right track and, and you can't let you know, um, comparing yourself to your heroes, uh, hold you back from creating the work that is right for this moment.

I think that's probably the biggest thing I would communicate to myself. What do you

Andy J. Pizza: [00:36:55] think that version of you. At that point in time was specifically worried about what were the nagging thoughts that you, that that is

Cymone Wilder: [00:37:04] speaking to? I mean, at that point, so like early college, obviously social media was already a thing, but now we're getting into Instagram and we have access to viewing everybody's work all the time, you know, every single thing that create.

And so you're seeing. And, and you're seeing, you know, version of this person. And so I'm seeing all these people's work. And I have, I don't have an understanding of who that person is. Like, I, like I could look at Eric work for instance, and not understand that he's probably got 15 years on me and has lived, you know, an entire life.

And so I'm sitting here comparing myself to this person's work, not understanding that. They're they're at a different stage in life than you, and you cannot, you know, put yourself against that and let that hold you

back.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:37:54] Yeah. And it's, you don't know their story and you need to keep your energy telling your own and live in your own story because that one is just as worth while and just as interesting and is going to lead into totally different places.

You know, one of the things that crossed my mind as you were telling your story as well, I think about this phrase, it's from the improv world, creating from the top of your intelligence. And it's like, uh, you know, it's kind of one of those things they say all the time, like yeah. Sanding and all that kind of all the lingo that you hear, but creating from the top of your intelligence is all about what is your specialty knowledge?

And it seems like with all of the civil rights stuff from 2020, you had a lot of knowledge based on your parents actually taught you history and you have a wealth of information that other people don't have. Do you feel that way? Do you feel like there's specialty information there and there's a difference point of view in a, and have you specifically, he reached back into moments in time from your parents.

As a, as a kid.

Cymone Wilder: [00:39:00] Yeah. I think it's definitely, definitely specialty knowledge, I think. And in that same vein, I think everybody has specialty knowledge on something because we all grew up in our own, you know, worlds and settings. But obviously my, my growing up was especially applicable for 2020s events. And I think, um, I mean, I don't know, like even so there's, you know, a portion where my parents were like, this is our history, this is what happened.

And then there's the other side where it's like, this is just. My life. This is how I've experienced it like this, you know, all of my family, you know, in this specific example, all my family is black. And so obviously I'm going to understand, you know, culturally significant things in the black community, just from, you know, you know, we do Thanksgiving slightly differently than other families.

And, you know, we, we have, uh, us black national Anthem and, you know, we sing happy birthday differently sometimes, you know? So just like. Some of these cultural things, um, that you hear, you know, an aunt or something talk about, or, you know, your family talk about. I just, you know, you absorb these things and that is kind of what has informed my experience and my knowledge.

And so, um, you know, that's been great. And I think my parents. My mom is my mom. Like every year we ha there's some sort of black related holiday, whether it's like Martin Luther King day or June 10th or something, or, I mean, I can't even think of the other ones, but she's like, what, what are you doing for, what are you doing for this holiday?

Are you celebrating, you know, how are you kind of, you know, spreading the word? Uh, so I feel like I finally, like, I finally have a way to do that with my lettering and you know, my small platform on social media, I can, you know, Uh, you know, letter a quote or something or something that feels relevant to those things.

And so it's nice to. Her ask those things now. And I can be like, well, look, I made this thing and all these people saw it and all these people engaged with it and we're having a deep conversation.

So

Andy J. Pizza: [00:41:03] do you have memories from childhood where you feel like this happened to me, but it wouldn't, it didn't happen to any of my contemporaries or my peers or my heroes, like, or something, maybe even that you're.

Parents pulled you aside and said, Hey, we're going to tell you about this thing. Or is there anything that comes to mind, any specific, any little tiny memory that stands out in your mind? Um,

Cymone Wilder: [00:41:26] I don't know if there's like events that I would have been to or gone to that were really specifically bike, but I know that.

I had a circle of friends growing up and they were all white and there were times in high school when, you know, there's nothing to do in a small town. And so we would do like, uh, like hide and go seek at night and we would all go to a park or something, or, you know, some neighborhood and, uh, you know, I'd be playing a game and running around in the neighborhood.

And I think there was there. Times, or there were a couple moments when my parents were like, you, you can't do that. You have to stop doing that because you're, you know, you're a young black kid probably wearing a jacket or a hood or something running through these white neighborhoods and these parks and you cannot do that.

And I don't think that really clicked. And I think I, you know, I'm still friends with a lot of these people and I've, you know, gone back and had those conversations and they're like, Oh yeah, that was really stupid. I don't know why. I mean, obviously none of us realized it, but we should not have done that.

And I think those are kind of some things that not every kid in America is experiencing right now, but that's something that happened. Stuff like little things like that happened often for me, like there's a lot of like micro actions that you do that you don't think about that. Like, I have to think about every time, like.

You know, I walk into a gas station. I need to make sure my hands are outside of my pockets and I'm not, you know, waiting too long in a certain spot and looking suspicious and all this stuff. So I think those are some things that like occupy so much of my brain power that I don't think everybody has to think

Andy J. Pizza: [00:43:15] about.

Thanks for sharing that, because I feel like that specific particular story. Illustrates, uh, such a powerful and kind of emotional point of view of, you know, people think just like what you said, like racism, is this overt in your face experience of being abused verbally or, or worse or whatever, when it can be as.

You know, subtle in a way as you don't get to play hide and seek, and that almost paints a picture that is moving and it gets me in a way that some of the more headline stories. Don't because you don't realize this thing is this is deeply affecting micro actions and every day and something as simple as you don't get to participate in that.

And it reminds me of like, You know, playing capture the flag and the dark in my backyard and never did my parents need to say, you need to be careful doing that. You know, we're doing it across, you know, several, uh, yards in the town and never in a million years. Does that gonna cross my mind? So thanks for sharing that, that that's a powerful image.

Cymone Wilder: [00:44:39] Okay. Yeah. I mean, and I should say, it's not like, obviously it sucks and it's terrible, but. Ultimately I'm living, you know, a good, happy, healthy life. It's just, uh, those are, those are things that perhaps not everybody is experiencing.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:44:54] One last thing I want to ask you about is, do you have something on your mind right now that year?

Extremely exuberant about and aren't able to communicate or super angry about, or is there something that you are kind of having the courage to address or tackle or want to figure out a way to, uh, express and explore in your work that you maybe didn't have the courage to do in the past?

Cymone Wilder: [00:45:23] Perhaps addressing some of like my issues with.

The conversation around faith things right now. And just how that's so wrapped up in, uh, the politics that are occurring right now. And I think, uh, something that is, and I hate to like, have made my whole conversation about I'm black and it's sad and terrible, but I think, I mean, that's, that's my life.

Right. Uh, but I think there are a lot of like issues happening in the country right now that are like, we just had a coup and, and, you know, Black people are getting killed by the police and we're in a pandemic. And I think what is frustrating to me is that we're starting to address a lot of these concerns that are brought up by these issues.

And that's great, but it's like there are groups and massive amounts of people who have been bringing this up and, you know, really just like beaten this over, like for years and decades and generations. And this is what it takes to actually address these concerns. And I think that is something, one thing that I kind of is top of mind at the beginning of this year.

And it's something that I like I would like to somehow figure out how to, you know, communicate in my work. And I think, um, the faith stuff is one of those, one of those things that I've been kind of thinking, thinking about the last few years, just like, how did, how did this. Thing that is faith that has existed for thousands and thousands of years, or, you know, uh, whatever you believe.

But like, there's this thing that has existed that I believe. And how did it get so wrapped up in the politics of this specific country and, um, and issues of race and all these things. And that's something that I'd like to unpack, at least for myself. Um, And I think that the COO especially has kind of, you know, set that off for me just because that somehow faith got wrapped up into, you know, overthrowing the government.

So that's, you know, it's hard to put words around that at this point. So I think that's something I need to explore, uh,

Andy J. Pizza: [00:47:36] because it's so hard to put words around it. What's the feeling that you have. What's the feeling as you're viewing. Faith being hijacked for political reasons and in a divisive way, and being kind of wrangled, you know, bundled with a bunch of other things wholesale.

What is the feeling that you have the overwhelming feeling behind all that as you're kind of experiencing it?

Cymone Wilder: [00:48:05] I think initially it's frustration, but I think really it's kind of betrayal because it's. You know, I've grown up, you know, being taught these things and learning these things. And as I've grown up and have started to actually understand what is informing these things, and at least in our country, it is just like, Whoa, Whoa, what did I get?

You know, what did you guys bring me into? And what is, what is this thing? And I think, you know, the core of the belief is still there, but there's so much like. Terrible stuff associated with it. And it's like, I just don't understand where it came from. So I think there's a sense of betrayal for sure. And I think I need to.

Wrap my mind around that a little

Andy J. Pizza: [00:48:50] bit more. I totally agree. Which I mean, my experiences different, but when it comes to the faith staff that I have a very similar experience, you know, I grew up in Indiana and the Bible belt and you know, all of the are so many people in my life who, you know, just. Beat this stuff over my head.

And if you and I, and at some point I took them seriously and I started looking into these books and I'm like, this is all about love. It's all about inclusion. And how do we look to the other? How do we look to the person that everyone sees as. Not us and in extend faith and love and kindness and joy and that stuff to those people.

And I started to take those people seriously has some point I quit, you know, you know, I gave, I was like, all right, you guys seem to be obsessed with this damn book and all these things. I'll take a look at it. I started diving in and seeing that that's what I saw. And then to watch those same people.

Live out opposing values to that. There's definitely a thing that happened in me where I'm like, okay, well where's the discrepancy. Where's the w something.

Cymone Wilder: [00:50:02] Yeah. It's like, are you, are you guys reading the same thing I'm reading? I mean, it's, and that's a whole nother conversation, but I just it's just like, this is.

This thing that you guys are talking about, which is separate from what I have read and learned myself, it's just like, they're two opposing ideas and I don't want to be a part of. Whatever it has become and is informing like the events that are unfolding and the past

Andy J. Pizza: [00:50:31] few weeks. Yeah. I feel you on that last thing, I'm going to ask, I already said that, but I've changed my mind.

You saying that. What you're seeing in the media is different from my experience or the things that have impacted me or, or what my faith means to me or our, what have you. And I wonder if these positive changes in your personal journeys or the, or the breakthrough in your creativity, what do you attribute that to in you?

What were the things that you feel like this is the thing that created the domino effect? Do you feel like that? Do you feel like. You look back five years ago and you're like, I'm a different person. Like, do you feel

Cymone Wilder: [00:51:11] that way? It was a hundred percent. I feel like. I mean, obviously at the core I'm the same person, but I don't, I think if like, you know, 20, 21 someone met 2015 someone, it would just be like, wow.

Wow. And I don't, and I don't, obviously I feel like this I'm the most comfortable in my skin. I think I've ever been. Um, and I think really. The, you know, the difference is just, I understand myself more and I think that there's, um, I'm leaning ha this is like such a cheesy phrase, but I'm leaning into kind of the truth of, of what is happening.

Not just in me, but like in the world, like, I feel like things are being uncovered, the blinders of being taken off my eyes. And I think while. When you learn more of the truth of what's happening, it can be more frustrating and more angering because you're, you're seeing what's actually happening. But I think when you understand what there is, then that helps you have hope and, and, uh, for what can, you know, change out of these things and what can, what can come out of these things.

And I think. The dark stuff and all the, all of the crazy that's happening, uh, fortunately was great for my creativity because it, it, you know, the more frustrated I am, I think the easier it is for me to kind of articulate what's happening. I don't know if that. It makes sense for everybody, but for me, I think I can articulate best when I'm frustrated.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:52:41] Yeah. 100%, you know, growing up in the church, I don't know if this was like this for you, but I feel like there was a culture of suppressing repressing the truth, looking at the problem, looking at the problem with yourself and the problem with the world and all the darkness, all of the stuff. And it sounds like you're saying.

Actually a big part of the breakthrough was taking a damn good look at the darkness and being like, this is the, this is the facts. This is where we are. This is coming to terms with the diagnosis. If you're going to, you know, find a cure. Um, while I hope that you continue to find creative ways to share that truth, because.

The S it clearly has had a really life-giving effect on you. And I'm glad to see, you know, it feels like everywhere I turn, I, I see you and see your work, and I'm really happy because I think that you, in that there's something that lots and lots of people need. Thanks for doing this. I hope it was fun for you.

And where can people find all your staff

Cymone Wilder: [00:53:51] basically at Simon and moose is kind of where you can find me across all the socials. Um, and then that's, that's also my website as well, Simon and moose.com. So if you, if you want to get sad and moody with me, you can, you can come check those things out. And sometimes I.

Do stupid shit too. And it's not all dark and terrible in my life. I promise

Andy J. Pizza: [00:54:11] everybody.

That's hilarious. Well, thanks for doing this monitor. Really

Cymone Wilder: [00:54:17] appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Andy J. Pizza: [00:54:41] Thanks to Simone Wilder for taking some time out and, uh, and having a great chat with me. Go follow Simone. On Instagram at Simon and moose gorgeous work, deep fried lettering, crackling lettering, gorgeous staff. And you can go to credit pep talk.com/episodes/three Oh three. Check out the show notes. We'll put a link in there to someones YouTube.

That he, uh, where she shows some of the mechanics of how she gets these effects from her lettering, uh, that have that organic deep fried feel. Thanks Simone for taking the time we love. Yeah, no wonder. You're blown up. You got gorgeous, gorgeous work.

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